The Fresh Wave Podcast
Our NEW Youth podcast! For Youth, By Youth... And Johnny! We’re taking a fresh look at topics that students engage with on a day to day basis, shaping our viewpoint through the lens of the gospel. Come ride The Fresh Wave!
The Fresh Wave Podcast
The Problem with Perfection
What is perfection, really? And why do so many of us chase it—especially when it leaves us anxious, exhausted, or feeling like we’ll never measure up?
In this honest and heartfelt conversation, the Fresh Wave crew welcomes returning guest Sabrina and newcomer Natalie to talk all things perfectionism . From pressure in friendships and school to striving in our faith, we explore where this desire to “be enough” comes from—and why it so often leaves us empty.
Is it pride? Fear? People-pleasing?
What if the pursuit of perfection actually keeps us from surrendering to God?
And what does Jesus say about all this?
This episode goes deep—from Genesis to Ephesians to James—with encouragement for anyone struggling to feel worthy or whole. You’ll hear personal stories, scripture reflections, some big “aha” moments, and the beautiful reminder that...
You don’t have to be enough. Jesus already is.
Hit that like button, subscribe for more youth-led truth, and don’t forget: you are free to follow Jesus imperfectly. He gives more grace.
Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Fresh Wave Podcast. This podcast is for youth by youth.
Johnny:And Johnny.
Maddy:And today is season four, episode 23. We're going to be talking about perfectionism. We have a returning guest, Sabrina, and a new guest, Natalie, and we hope you enjoy this episode. Have a great week. So today we are talking about perfectionism. I kind of wanted to open with everyone's opinion of what they think the word perfect means. And if there's kind of a difference between like perfectionism versus if you're just striving for something or just like trying to be excellent at something or like a talent or whatever it might be. So what does everyone think the word perfect means?
Sabrina:So I would say the word perfect means without flaw. Like I think, um, just something that is has no flaws basically and i think i was actually thinking about the word perfect versus perfectionism earlier when i was just kind of preparing because there are parts in the bible where it talks about like matthew 5 48 says be perfect therefore as your heavenly father is perfect so what i was kind of thinking about is that perfect comes from a place of like love and reverence towards god with the joy of heaven uh at focus and you're trying to be perfect because you're striving to please your heavenly father and that perfectionism comes from a place of fear and anxiety towards god with the fear of hell at the focus where you're worried about what you're not doing and how you are going to fail God and sin.
Johnny:Well, that's a wrap. Sounds good.
Sabrina:All
Maddy:right. I was going to say
Johnny:that. Maddie's over there like, I was going
Maddy:to use that verse too.
Johnny:Great. Wonderful opening there. Yeah. So I was going to say without error or without flaw.
Maddy:Yeah, I was kind of the same way. I agree with the like fear-based, but also maybe pride-based, like strive for something. I think it leads us to like fixate on something or almost have like an obsessive fixation on something, which often leads us to like neglect things that can be necessary for us or even good for us in general. I
Johnny:was also kind of thinking of adding, I don't know if this would work, but it is as it was intended, right?
Speaker 01:I'll
Johnny:see how that would maybe fit, like as it was intended. I don't know if that fully fits, but like to me, that is kind of an aspect of it. Like, yes, it's without error, without flaw. It's as it was intended to be.
Sabrina:Yeah. It's like sometimes like our hearts searching for Eden here on earth and searching to get back into the garden because we all have that idea of perfect in ourselves, but also we have this idea that we, because of our sin and our fallen state, we can never actually get to the garden, get to that perfection without Jesus. And actually there's a very interesting argument for the existence of God by, I think one of Aquinas' arguments that he uses is the idea of degrees of perfection that, um, the idea of the fact that there are varying levels of goodness and beauty and truth in the world show that there is an ultimate good, beautiful, true being, and that those degrees of perfection actually point towards a one perfect being, which I think is, a very fascinating argument. I haven't looked at it too much, but I think when talking about perfection, especially the idea that we have this idea of perfection or eating in our hearts and then thinking about God in that way, I find it a very interesting argument.
Johnny:Tom Thomas. Yeah. Do you remember how many levels of perfection he had?
Sabrina:No,
Johnny:no,
Sabrina:I don't think it was like, I can't remember if it's like specific levels or if it was just like the idea of the fact that we have varying levels of good point to the fact that there is a ultimate good or something like that. Oh,
Johnny:got it. Got it. Okay. Okay. interesting
Maddy:yeah I think I've heard that before too I also kind of like the comparison of how much we also try to be perfect in our own lives in order to refrain from like surrendering to God like I mean that comes back to like the prideful and humility thing where like you're ultimately striving to be in control of your life or you're striving to have perfect plans and a perfect will for yourself and I'm gonna pursue this perfect career and everything is going perfectly like I think it's almost just our lack of want and desire to surrender to someone else that is in ourselves because we believe that we can control everything perfectly if you know everything lays out exactly how we want so I definitely think it's almost a part of just not wanting to surrender which makes sense again like our human desire human fallenness leads us to want to do that and almost keep things from God in that sense
Johnny:that's good I feel like that that's like an answer to a question I was going to ask which would be like why do we struggle with perfectionism I think that's probably one is we don't want to surrender to the Lord. We want to do things on our own. It's like, what else would, if you struggle with perfectionism or other people, like why do you think they do?
Sabrina:I feel like I have to raise my hand or something. I don't want to
Johnny:interrupt anyone. No,
Maddy:jump in right away. I
Sabrina:feel like nobody could be perfect because of the presence of sin. Like we could have been perfect before, like in Eden and stuff at the beginning of time. But because we have sinful nature, we can't be perfect anymore. but we like strive for that and we don't accept that. And a lot of people struggle with trying to be perfect. We literally can't. That's our nature. The only one that was perfect was Jesus because he didn't sin. And I think the interesting thing is that Christianity is virtually the only, I think basically the only religion in the world that you cannot save yourself in. Like every other religion in some way, you are by your own power, achieving something like all the Eastern religions, you're achieving Nirvana or whatever state of being with like, the universe, like Islam, it's works-based. Even Judaism in the way it's practiced now is works-based, and pretty much every other religion is works-based except Christianity, where it's saying... the only way that you can save or be saved is by saying that you absolutely cannot save yourself and cannot be perfect and cannot achieve that on your own power.
Maddy:Yeah, I totally agree with that. I am taking a like religion class right now and we learned about like 20 to 30 different religions and like all of them point back to like that workspace mentality. And it also kind of points to how like our God is like just being Christian, like we're reminded that our God doesn't look for like perfect external or internal performance which is so like against a lot of other religions and how they view like their god um and just like we don't even need perfect motivation or like perfectly informed motivation um so it almost points back to god's character too and how he views us um in our battle with sin
Sabrina:yeah actually i have a verse i want to read from that related to that it's from um ephesians 2 verse uh where are we i'm gonna just go one through like four or five. And you were dead in trespasses and sin in which you once walked following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience, among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind. We were by nature of children of wrath, like the rest of mankind, but God being rich in mercy because of the great love with which you loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ. By grace, you have been saved. Like, this is a verse, like, honestly, pretty much Ephesians 1 through, like, i think like 210 i will like go and read whenever i'm having like a struggle with like perfectionism i'll just read the entire section and like remember that it is god who loved us when we were unlovable when we were in our sin when we were unable to do good and we were doing like terrible things yet he loved us and he looked at us and he said i want to send my son jesus to die for you like even with all the stuff you're doing like in his mercy we can be saved. And it's not based off of anything that we've done, but it's only by the grace of God that we can be saved.
Johnny:Amen. Amen. Yeah. Good reminder. But God, right? That's like the biggest, the biggest, but God statement in scripture and just reminding ourselves that we are, we are broken. We are flawed, but I think we, I think we still have just the same heart from Eve in Genesis. Desire for control. Desire for
Sabrina:control.
Maddy:yeah i agree i also think on top of like being in control i also think it's almost like winning approval like we try to win approval if we're not in control and we're not our own god then we're seeking approval from god or from someone else in our lives so i think it's almost like um if we're trying to win approval from god and like oh like i'm trying to be perfect i'm trying to go towards this like works-based faith um i'm doing all the right things and But then still, that falling short, I think, leads into emotions of guilt and shame. So then you have a whole other conflict with your faith, and now it's built off something that's so shaky and unsteady because you're never going to be perfect. Again, your faith is going back and forth because you're so focused on your works.
Sabrina:Yeah, I feel like it's that we don't feel worthy because of that. We don't feel like we're enough, but we need to realize that it's not about whether we're enough. It's that Jesus is enough. God is enough.
Maddy:Yeah.
Sabrina:So
Johnny:how do you see perfectionism play out in your life? Where do you struggle with that? And how do you, how do you deal with it?
Sabrina:Usually it's about friendships. I always try to be the perfect friend, but it's really hard, especially dealing with your own stuff just to be there for everybody or you slip up or you, I have a lot of anxiety. It's like, Oh, I said the wrong thing or I'm not there. Oh, I forgot this. I was like, I can't be there for everyone every single moment. and take care of myself and everything that goes on. And yeah.
Johnny:What do you think the root of that is like people pleasing? Do you think you're like a people pleaser? Oh yeah, I am. Yeah. Sorry. A moment of vulnerabilities here. Yeah. I know I am. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.
Sabrina:I think for me, it's like just how I do things in my own life of like the standards that I set for myself and like my schoolwork and the ways I interact with other people and the goals I set. And I feel like, uh, the standards that I set for myself and like the ways that I want to complete things sometimes I have to get like mentality like if I can't do it perfectly like I don't want to have to do it I don't want to have to fail at something or quote-unquote fail at something because usually my standards are higher than they should be so I think that's where a lot of my perfectionist struggles come from and also the fact that like I'm never going to be a perfect Christian on the side of heaven like I like there are so many things that like I need to like work on and I'm never going to be fully perfect and fully the best possible Christian on the side of heaven, but I'm waiting for ultimately my glorification once I go to heaven to be able to achieve that perfection. I guess that realization is something that I've had to wrestle with a lot in my faith walk.
Johnny:So what would you think the root of your perfectionist desire is? I
Sabrina:guess fear of failure, I think, probably. I
Johnny:feel like for me, My struggle would be just being able to do it all. Like I just, I want to, if something needs to happen, needs to take place, like I gotta do it. And if I can't, then I just, I guess I feel, I feel weak. So I guess I'd probably be like my, my root cause is not wanting to be weak. So I just want to be able to, to do every single thing that is, that is needed.
Maddy:Yeah, I think for me it's, like, definitely all those things combined, but a little bit more of, like, the validation side of it. Like, I think before I was saved, I sought a lot of validation in other things, which almost has, like, still slightly carried over into my faith in just, like, validation from, like, Jesus and God in general. So, again, like, that topic of, like, the fact that I will never fully be perfect until like heaven, like that's also something I've had to like grasp as well. But I also think that almost like validation is now the root of like not wanting to feel insecure. So I think that's something that I've had to like uncover and like walk with with God for a while and definitely like be open about it with him, which has helped a lot. Like there are a lot of areas of my life that have now been like really healing for me to not have to feel the need to get validation from those things. So yeah, I think my perfection is probably on the side of validation from whoever it is or whatever it is.
Johnny:So I feel like I've been hearing validate, validation a lot recently from a lot of people. Everyone wants to be validated, right? Let me validate your feelings. Let me validate what you're going through. Let me validate this. What do you think the... Why... Why do you think that is? For me more recently, I feel like I hear that. Is it just like a desire to be seen, a desire to be known, a desire to someone to notice what you've done? Like what do you think some of this validate kind of root is for?
Maddy:Yeah, I think it's probably all of those things almost. I also think it's in part, I feel like we hear that phrase like validate a lot when people don't want like a piece of them to go unnoticed or like missing. So if there's like... point obviously we hear it about like sexuality and like all this stuff so i think it almost comes from a place of like i just want this to be seen and like i don't want to feel incomplete without it being validated so even if it's like academics or like your job or your career if that goes unnoticed and you're not validated in your job then it's like well i've made this a piece of me and you're not validating it so now i don't feel complete anymore i don't feel like this can be a part of me because it's not being praised
Johnny:deep
Sabrina:i usually feel like i don't want to whatever i'm doing i don't want it to feel useless that i'm doing it i want to feel like i'm worth something and there's a reason why i'm doing something or i'm making a difference
Johnny:yeah like all your murals you want someone to like just notice them when they walk in the door like hey look that wall looks different Definitely. Definitely.
Sabrina:One guy walked in and he's like, when did this get here? I'm like, for like five months.
Johnny:We've been coming to this classroom every day. Yeah. Yeah. So in terms of perfectionism within our faith, I guess, here's a, here's a quick question. Do you feel like you struggle with perfectionism and just like daily worldly things or in your faith more?
Sabrina:Or both? Both. I think it goes back and forth on which one's more. I think there was a period in time where it was much more my faith and then it became more worldly things. I think more recently it's been my faith again. So I think it goes back and forth depending on where I am in my walk and what's going on around me, what my life looks like. So I think it's very circumstantial for me if it's my faith or worldly things. Yeah, I agree. Sometimes I feel like I'm not doing enough also when it comes to, I'm not listening to enough worship music. I'm not reading enough, not praying enough, talking enough to God, like that kind of thing. So it goes both ways. I just feel like I'm not doing enough.
Johnny:I feel like that, like what you just said, we would all say.
Maddy:Yeah. Every day.
Johnny:Every single day. So I do think we all do have a little perfectionist, like desire, heart or whatever, because I do think a majority of Christians would say that I'm not doing enough or I wish I did more, which I guess is somewhat good. It's good that I don't want to sit here and be like, yep, I did it. I solved God. I know everything. I'm good. So I think there is a good sense that I think we are recognizing. I think that recognizes we aren't perfect.
Speaker 01:So
Johnny:I think a lot of times we look at that and we're like, oh, that's a bad thing. And yeah, maybe we do truly need to obviously spend time more with the Lord or worship more or whatever. But I do think there is a a good self-awareness when we say things like that, which is good. I don't think we're blind. I've yet to meet someone that's like, like I said, I'm like, yeah,
Sabrina:yeah, yeah. Nope. I do enough quiet time. I read the Bible enough. I do enough. I'm good. I'm good. And I think like, it's hard to balance like the commands in the Bible with also leaning on grace because I think there are times like I can get so caught up in, I need to be doing all these things. Otherwise, like I'm not a good Christian or like, Like, God isn't going to love me as much if I don't do, like, these things. But also remembering that that's wrong because he loves us anyway. And we're saved by grace, right? But also balancing with you don't want to be lukewarm and not trying to strive for better. Like, because there are tons of commands throughout the Bible to, like, keep going. Like, try to be excellent. Try to please God, right? So I think it's... how do you balance in your walk the idea of still leaning on grace, remembering that it's God's grace that you're saved, and that these works aren't going to save you or change the way that God looks at you, I guess, but also remembering that we are called to do, like, works and do good things.
Maddy:Yeah. I think I was talking about this with one of my friends, like, a little while ago, but I think that strive is, like, the most important thing. Like, Again, if you said I spent enough time in quiet time, I spent enough time reading my Bible, you'd never have that strive to go deeper with God or just, I guess, explore more of the wonder of God. Of course, we're always striving for more of God because there is always more of God. There's always more of God you're going to be uncovering over time and that we won't fully get to until heaven. so i think part of it is almost like recognizing we want that daily strive because it's a good thing we think about that every day because it is a daily thing we want to put god in our daily lives but um just to the extent that we know like jesus is with us in this strive like he wants us to strive for holiness but it's not it's not the perfection now it's the future perfection that we're promised
Johnny:yeah like god is not a plateau yeah we get there and now i'm just Nice and easy, nice and steady on this nice flat walk. It's just this continuous mountain that we're just always searching, we're always finding, we're learning more, seeing more. I always think of this quote of Billy Graham, right? Evangelist, one of the most well-known figures of the, what, 21st century, 20th century? 20th century. 20th? 1900s, right? Yeah, 20th century. And, you know, this guy knew the Lord, this guy knew the Bible, and he lived to be like almost 100. And in his 90s, he was like, yeah, I still learn every time I open up the Bible. Like, that's awesome. Like, that's the heart we should all kind of try to be like. It's just always learning, always seeking, uncovering, and the Lord will just continue to reveal himself in new ways.
Sabrina:And the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know anything. I
Johnny:was talking to this chiropractor that also had like a lot of, I don't know, brain background or something. And he was telling us, he was like, yeah, the more we study the brain, he's like, the more we realize we have no idea about anything about the brain. Like it's so complex. And we study a little bit and we're like, oh my gosh, there's so much we don't know. So it's kind of like, yeah, kind of bring that into God too. Like, all right, we find a little bit out, but like, wow, there's, It's like the galaxies and stuff. It's just endless.
Maddy:Yeah. I also think... um when we're talking about like biblical perfection like we're talking about the desire to be perfect like usually i mean it's not really found anywhere that we should be encouraged towards perfection obviously like there is um wait i had that verse actually that you mentioned you must be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect but before that jesus says do not think i have come to abolish the law or the prophets i have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them like Jesus coming to perfectly fulfill the law on our behalf kind of gets rid of that demand for perfection that God would want from us. And it's also a reminder in like every biblical story that we read about the way that God uses the saints in the Bible. Like we have Moses and David and you know, Moses is like parting the red sea and leading tribes. And David is this great Christ like King. And they still had their imperfections and their qualities that would make them disqualified, but ultimately led them to fulfill Jesus's calling for them on earth, even if it wasn't perfection.
Johnny:So as we wrap up here, what is something, What's like a piece of advice, a piece of encouragement you would give to someone that's kind of wrestling with just this perfectionist attitude? And I think a lot of times the perfectionist attitude can actually make us feel horrible at the same time, right? Sometimes I think we might think too highly of ourselves and we think we did achieve perfection, but I think a lot of people that are perfectionists actually struggle a lot with like, maybe what you were saying before, Matty, like with a lot of insecurities, a lot of doubts. So what would be some like encouragement towards people that are wrestling with this topic?
Sabrina:I think like what Natalie said earlier, like you don't need to be enough because Jesus is enough, right? Like you're not going to be enough to be like really honest and you're not going to be that perfect person that you want to be and that's really hard to hear. But the sooner that you realize that and the sooner that you realize that the only person who can be that person that you want to be is Jesus and that the only way that you can achieve that perfect that you're searching for is by faith and reliance on Jesus, so much better that your life will be and you don't have to worry about continuously striving for something that you will never ever achieve on your own.
Johnny:I would say, actually speaking about this as we close out James tonight, I think a lot of perfectionists struggle with just kind of, I think one of you mentioned like just failing, right? Feel failure and just a word of encouragement that not being perfect is okay because James 4.6 says, but he gives more grace, right? Like time and time again, he gives more grace. He gives more grace. And I think for all those struggling with being perfect, James 4, 6, but he gives more grace. So just submit yourself, be humble before the Lord and just allow him to show you his grace and he will transform and mold you each day. Let's go. I feel like we didn't introduce them in the beginning. We did not,
Speaker 01:right? We'll do it in the
Johnny:intro. Thank you, Natalie and Sabrina.
Maddy:Who are these people? And I want to say one last thing.
Johnny:Let's go.
Maddy:The more that I pursue perfectionism, I think the more I find that God will continually, mercifully defeat those circumstances and those efforts for perfection because he doesn't want us to fight sin successfully. He wants us to learn where our freedom truly comes from. So I would just encourage you that in Christ, you are set free. You are free to follow Jesus imperfectly. You're free to fight the good fight of faith defectively because that is all that you can fight for in this age.